from http://www.ministrytodaymag.com/blog/2006/09/guest-commentary-goodbye-theologians.html?ext-ref=comm-sub-email

Wagner's line of logic very disturbing. First, every Christian is a theologian, while some may have degrees. Also, to dismiss some theologians is merely Wagner's way of saying "We few illuminated Apostolic-Teachers are the only ones qualified to dispense truth in the new church age." This is an attempt to reduce accountability to others in the Body of Christ on matters of sound doctrine, of which Wagner and others in the New Apostolic Reformation are severely lacking. Even with all his education, Wagner makes hermenuetical errors which are unacceptable. Get back to reading the Bible, not reading INTO it.

# posted by  Don Boone : 3:32 AM

most true "theologians' would fit the description of a 5 fold teacher. They establish doctrine for the church. Through history many did this. Athenasus, the 3 cappadocians etc,Most have a gift of revelation from the Holy Spirit to form doctrines correctly.

# posted by  Anonymous : 2:48 PM

Doctrine in plain terms is the Bible. The Teachers mentioned in Ephesians do not invent doctrines. They dispense them from the Bible, reinforce them, and draw out of them implications and applications by careful study. 
There is no need for a supernatural "gift of revelation" other than that which is given to every believer in Jesus, being born again and led by the Spirit of God. And the Holy Spirit does not violate the historical and grammatical intent of the scriptures, so that the scriptures cannot have a new meaning which was not there in the first place. 
So much "new revelation" has been responsible for the abandon of Biblical truth, and often the "new revelation" is a result of trying to bring extra-Biblical notions and practices into a Christian worldview which is doing just fine without it. 
All Christians are called to use discernment, which is to compare a teaching with the Bible to see if it is true or false. There is no need for a special gift to do this, just rightly divide the Word of God.

# posted by  Don Boone : 10:18 AM

On Brian McLaren

This is an excerpt from an interview posted at http://www.brianmclaren.net/archives/000133.html

Q: One blogger who refers to you as the godfather – not sure how you feel about that – offered another metaphor. You’re telling people there’s this great new restaurant across town, and they go there with you, only to hear on arrival that the menu won’t be printed for another twenty years

A: I can see how that’s frustrating. I think the metaphor makes the point very well. But I wonder if I could put a spin on it. Maybe that story should continue by the people saying, “Hey, let’s go in the kitchen and see if we can help create some new recipes.” If we get more people involved in the creative process, maybe it will only be ten years, not twenty. I think people need to feel empowered, like they’re contributors, not consumers buying the latest “postmodern ministry in a box” program. We’re all in this thing together.

Q: That’s exactly what was discouraging. Here I am, trying, doing my best, and you call what I’m doing ridiculous.

A: I’m so sorry. That’s not what I intended.

Q: You should be more careful.

A: Yes, I should. But I think you’ll agree, as I said in the article or whatever it was: having postmodern churches isn’t the point.

Q: I think you’re wrong about that. It is the point. You made the analogy to languages. If Spaniards move into the area, having Spanish churches is the point. It’s exactly the point.

A: I see what you mean. I’m afraid my analogy again creates confusion along with adding some clarity. Here’s the problem. We can translate our modern version of the gospel into postmodern idioms … candles, coffee, community, digital imagery, etc. But it’s still a modern version of the gospel.

Q: Hold on. That bothered me too. You wrote, “Which reminds us that none of us has a complete grasp of the gospel…. It's very dangerous to assume you've perfectly contained the gospel in your little formula.” I think with all the other change going on, one thing we’ve got to hold firm on is the gospel.

A: What do you mean when you say “the gospel?"

Q: You know, justification by grace through faith in the finished atoning work of Christ on the cross.

A: Are you sure that’s the gospel?

Q: Of course. Aren’t you?

A: I’m sure that’s a facet of the gospel, and it’s the facet that modern evangelical protestants have assumed is the whole gospel, the heart of the gospel. But what’s the point of that gospel?

Q: What do you mean? I guess it’s so that people can spend eternity with God in heaven in an intimate personal relationship as opposed to … the alternative. You don’t seem to agree.

A: Well, for Jesus, the gospel seemed to have something to do with the kingdom of God.

Q: Which is the kingdom of heaven, which is going to heaven after you die.

A: Are you sure about that?

Q: Aren’t you?

A: This is exactly the point I was trying to make in the article. Many of us are sure we’re “postmodern” now with our candles and hipness and so on, but we haven’t asked some important and hard questions – not about postmodernity, but about modernity and the degree to which our theology and understanding of the gospel have been distorted or narrowed or made “gospel lite” by modernity.

Q: If you were intending to make me feel better, you’re not succeeding.

A: Well, I hope you’ll at least think about this. And search the Scriptures, you know, to see if there’s any validity to the question I’m raising.

I appreciate McLaren's honesty in this interview, and I can understand how the interview might help to offer clarity to his view on the Emergent Church Movement. And while I may have had questions about his theology, his quoted statements have helped to clarify his position. I hope that I am being faithful to his position by paraphrasing thus:

"The Modern Gospel is incomplete; it only tells part of the Good News."

If I'm wrong, someone please tell me, but I get the impression from McLaren that he thinks there's something Christians are leaving out when they say this:

"We are sinners saved by the Grace of God. We have no ability to change this situation, and so we are on a collision course with the wrath of God, Who is holy and in His love for creation does not tolerate sin. And since we are incapable of escaping wrath, God who is rich in mercy came to Earth in the Person of Jesus Christ, the sinless Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, Who died in our place on the Cross, to receive the just punishment for our iniquity. When we repent and put our faith in the finished work of Jesus, we are spared the wrath of God and empowered to live for God, exchanging our sin for the righteousness of Christ, being daily conformed to the image of Christ. Heaven is our home, and we are adopted into the family of God, to live on this Earth and in this time in order to express this in word and deed to others, exalting Jesus, to Whom the Father draws all men by His Spirit."

Or maybe the short form:

"We are saved by Grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, for the glory of God alone, in accordance with His Word alone."

The other guy in the quote gets it right, and McLaren totally slams him for it! That's a real eye-opener for me, folks.

If we start trying to add to this we are really taking something away from it. God has made this as simple as it needs to be. It's not about what we have done, it's about what God has done.

Everything else comes out of our faith in God and our relationship with Him: any works whether personal or communal, must flow from a changed heart into a set of values which lead to action. This is integrity.

The Scriptures are so clear about this. To deny this or try to re-imagine or re-constitute this is to oppose the Grace of God. You have to abandon rationality in order to...

Oh right... that's where it starts.

Unfortunately, the Church by and large is not speaking up about this. So "Pied Pipers" like McLaren are drawing away many into heresy.

The Postmodern Emergency

I think the issue comes down to this:

Postmoderns feel betrayed by Moderns, and feel that they are being bludgeoned in the name of Absolute Truth in its many forms.

Moderns feel threatened by Postmoderns, and feel that there are some issues, like Absolute Truth, which are non-negotiable.

So far I've seen and read both sides express a fair level of subjectivity and claim it to be the highest form of rationality. (I'll gladly put myself in this mix) You know how this works: the extremes cancel each other out.

So who's left standing... ?

Jesus.

He's the only one who can say He IS the Truth, and neither side in this debate hold a candle to His brilliance.

This same Jesus chose His apostles, sent them with His blessing to preach His gospel for what it is, the truth that sets us ALL free.

Let the Modern speak Truth, the Postmodern cannot profess to corner this market. And let this Truth guide him to meaningful actions.

Let the Postmodern ask questions, any honest search will lead to the Truth. And let him guard his heart from vain imaginings.

Sincerely Mistaken

Because a few of my friends are gushing about books written by some in the Emergent Church Movement (Doug Pagitt, Rob Bell, and Brian McLaren) I've had to check out a few of their articles, videos, and audio to find out what's up.

These guys are smart. They're probably a lot smarter than me. They know all kinds of 10 cent words like "binary reductionism" which they learned in university or seminary. And they also have very magnetic personalities. And if you listen, read, or watch them for any length of time, you get the impression that they really have it all worked out.

I personally am even convinced that they sincerely want to serve Jesus Christ.

And then you stop for a second and actually pay attention to what they are saying, and their rhetoric begins to disintegrate. "Professing to be wise, they became fools." (It's in Romans, look it up for yourselves.)

This seems to be the basic message I'm hearing: "We don't know the truth, we're incapable of knowing truth because of our individual subjectivities, so why do we insist that we're right about the Bible and arrogantly assume that everyone else is wrong. In fact, let's just drop the whole preaching thing anyway and just do something that going to make a difference in this world."

So they make these grandiose efforts to redefine and re-imagine Christianity:

Despising doctrine, not realizing or not caring that they're actually throwing away the Scriptures. That's what doctrine is, folks. Doctrine = Scripture. Jesus criticized the Pharisees, saying "You teach as doctines of God the traditions of man." I can't think of anything more "traditions of man" than the practices of the Emergent Church.

Adopting practices from Eastern Mysticism, and calling it "body prayer" and "contemplative prayer," as if relabeling these things in slightly evangelical terms makes them any less dangerous.

Accepting blatant false teachings with surprising gullibility despite their education, simply on the basis that "it works and it feels good so it must be from God." Where is the discerning of spirits? Oh yeah, they'd have to study the Bible to do that.

How many of these wilderness pitfalls must we wander into generation after generation while the Word of the Lord is present and able to lead us into His promises?

The Bible is very clear to the earnest student. And aside from the few tricky passages, the rest is very easy to understand, so much so that it has challenged every philosphical paradigm throughout the ages, including the postmodern view.

The Bible is meant to be read, understood, and embraced. Truth is absolute, and His name is Jesus. God Almighty in the flesh. You can't get any more objective than that.

God chooses to use words written and spoken to communicate to us in meaningful ways.

But are we really listening... ?

Pontius Pilate stood in the Presence of The Way The Truth And The Life, and said

"What is truth?"

On Idols

Deut 4:15 "Take care ful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female..."

John 20:29 'Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." '

I am an artist and a natural skeptic, so it may not be surprising that I am more comfortable with things that are visible and tangible. And this tends to run counter to my faith in a gracious and faithful yet invisible God, but that's life for you; you just can't pick your God. Of course any image we might construct will be flawed by our limited understanding, plus God is not here to be our Cosmic Errand Boy, and I think this is the crux of the matter with the sin of idolatry.

But let's not be too hasty to cast aspersions on the characters of the Old Testament, we are in very much the same situation with our God and Savior Jesus Christ. Many attempts have been made to pictorialize Jesus, and while the artist is sincere it must be accepted that any such portraits are flawed due to human limitations. Let's face it, the many paintings and sketches of the "Anglo-Saxon Jesus" just don't cut it. It's not the real Jesus folks. And if my research is correct, some sincere Christians may have fallen into the snare of hanging on their walls portraits of Sananda the New Age Jesus, aka Matreiya. (Sorry, but just google images> "sananda jesus" and see what you get.)

I think it's the wisdom of God not to have Jesus remain on earth. As wonderful as this would be, Jesus had to leave for the Holy Spirit to do His work in our hearts, apart from what we see and touch. We'll just have to trust the scriptures of the apostles who did see and touch Jesus as evidence enough.

But here's the point that I'm trying to make: the Scriptures are our connection with the real Jesus. When we read the Bible, we get a crystal clear view of Jesus that God intended for us to see, namely His character. And being called to be conformed to the image of Christ, I'm so thankful that we don't have to assume ridiculous visual caricatures of our Lord. But we have an opportunity to become something much more meaningful by His grace.